"Made-up stories matter

fuckthesecondsun:

madeupstoriesmatter:

fuckthesecondsun:

madeupstoriesmatter:

fuckthesecondsun:

madeupstoriesmatter:

“a picture was tweeted (and then removed) by Louise Eastell who was reporting being on set as Billie Piper’s (Rose Tyler) stunt-double. The costume doesn’t seem to match what we’ve seen Rose wear in any of her previous appearances in the show…perhaps she’s an alternate Rose, traveling with Hurt’s…

After the name of the doctor I thought of something similar too.

First of all, let me begin by saying that what I thought of straight away when it comes to John Hurt is that he’s an alternative version of Nine. Like, at the end of Eight’s life he did something terrible or very wrong etc. and instead of regenerating into the Nine we know he regenerated into a different Ninth Doctor (who is played by John Hurt). I didn’t even realize that this was actually open for interpretation until I started seeing other theories on Tumblr, but I still think this one makes the most sense.

So the way I saw it, in a universe where Nine was (apparently) kind of evil, or at least broken enough that he was not going around saving people anymore, he never meets Rose. He was never there when the Autons attacked, or when all the other alien attacks in London happened in the following years. As we’ve more or less seen in Turn Left, the consequences of that are dire. This case is different, though, because the Doctor wasn’t around for longer, which means they may have been taken care of in different ways, so that the result is not exactly the same as the world Donna lived in when she decided to help Rose.

Well, anyway, so now that the Doctor’s not around, the world is going to shit to at least some extent. And there is Rose Tyler, who always had the potential to be a hero but never had to tap into it in her boring old life, until she met the Doctor and constantly found herself in life/death situations.

Now, remember Rickey from Pete’s World? How he was the leader of an underground rebel group trying to stop the Cybermen? Whereas Mickey was just a mechanic that never amounted to much and never believed he had the ability to do so in the first place? What I’m getting at here is that Rickey became the leader of a rebellion, and thus a hero, because his world needed someone to save it, and there was no one else, so he took it upon himself to do it.

John Hurt’s AU is the same way. All this shit is hitting the fan (even assuming John Hurt himself wouldn’t become a threat, too), and there is no Doctor to save the Earth. So people obviously would start trying to fight off the aliens the best they could, probably forming all kinds of groups and agencies and whatnot.

Can anyone honestly believe Rose Tyler wouldn’t be at the very heart of something like that? Much like Rickey did, she’ll probably feel it’s her duty to do the most she can to help once she realizes something’s wrong.

So what I’ve been thinking is that maybe the Rose we’re going to see in the 50th is this one I just described. A Rose Tyler who never met or travelled with the Doctor, and who became a hero in her own right fighting off invading aliens on Earth, and possibly even going beyond that later (I, too, noticed the Vortex Manipulator on the double, and I don’t think it would be a stretch to think that if she stuck around Earth actively working with alien-related stuff she could end up either finding a vortex manipulator or else hitching a ride with some non-threatening space travelers and finding the manipulator through them/at a stop or destination).

Now that I’ve seen this post I’m thinking it’s just as likely that she did meet the Doctor-who-is-not-the-Doctor anyway and ended up being his companion, and that since he’s a different man their future is different enough that it’d explain the way she looked, etc.

I honestly don’t know which theory I’d prefer.

I do think it’s going to be one of them, however, because:

1- post-tentoo Rose would be heart-breaking. More importantly, it would be hard to explain how she got back (and why she’ll be leaving again, as we know she must). Most importantly, I don’t think even Moffat is crazy enough to mess with Rose and Tentoo’s happy ending, because he must know, with how many fans the Doctor/Rose ship has, it wouldn’t end well for him.

2- dimension-hopping Rose seemed to always wear the blue leather jacket (a time traveler must have a ‘signature time travelling coat’ after all), would also be hard to explain, and I don’t think she would be relevant enough to the 50th’s plot that it would be worth it to bring Billie back

3- s2 Rose looks too much younger (and chubbier) than Billie does currently, and I think if Moffat used s2 Rose it’d only be to constantly compare Rose with Clara and show off how ‘superior’ to Rose Clara is, like Clara is an improved version of Rose and he’d use the whole episode to rub our (and Rose’s) faces in it - so, basically, fuck no. Moreover, it would do little to the plot, specially because the Ten we’re getting back seems to be the falling-apart-and-going-insane post-s4 Ten (what with Elizabeth I being around), so why would s2 Rose be back without her Doctor?

Basically all other possible Roses we can get would not be relevant enough to the plot of the 50th that they’d go to the trouble of getting Billie to play the part again. Specially with how much Moffat’s probably gonna try to fit into this episode, with all the loopholey complexities he likes having in his stories, and Ten and an alternative, villain-y Doctor being there too, I find it unlikely they’d go to the trouble of bringing back Rose Tyler just for the hell of it and because a lot of the fans would like it.

So yeah, I think she’s either John Hurt’s companion or, for lack of a better term, his companion-that-wasn’t. Because this way we get a popular character back, yes, but in a way that she could add a lot to the storyline and make it worth everyone’s while.

holy shit this was long

Don’t you think, if Hurt’s character were from a parallel world, Eleven would ignore his existence and what he’s done? Even being a Time Lord? I got the impression the he knew that man very well, from his own life, not from an alternate version. I could be wrong, but I think he’s from the same Universe.

I agree with 2 and 3, but I think 1 is not impossible, although unlikely. Actually yesterday I came up with a theory, which you can read here. It is unlikely, sounds a bit like what RTD did in series 4, but with some adjustments could be possible. Maybe.

I also think spoiling Tentoo and Rose’s happy ending would be crossing a line even for Moffat. But I’m very scared anyway, because I ship them insanely hard, and I’m not sure if Moffat cares about what fans want. But I hope you’re right.

For me, personally, having a Rose that is not really our Rose, but an alternate Rose, would be a huge disappointment. As well as just an echo, a shapeshifter or something (we have to consider that). But still that would be better than ruining Tentoo x Rose, of course.

Oh, I never said John Hurt was from a parallel world. I think it’s canon that Time Lords are pan-dimensional (or something like that), which basically means there’s only one of each of them in the multi-verse - so there’s no parallel universe version of Gallifrey or of any time lord.

While normally I’d use this reasoning as proof that there can be no alternative versions of the Doctor at all (not just versions from parallel universes/other dimensions), there have been alternative Doctors before, who are in effect the only Doctor at the time (say, the Twelfth Doctor), except that then the other, previous Doctors stop him from ever being created in the first place. Or something along those lines. I think that’s pretty much who the Valeyard is, isn’t it? And time lord victorious? I never watched that special because I couldn’t find it anywhere, so I’m not too sure on the plot, but I think he’s like the eleven-that-could-have-been if Amy had died a certain way. And then the eleven we know went and stopped him/the events that made him that way, so he never existed at all

Now, that is HUGE GAPING PLOT HOLE in the whole concept of Time Lords, because as I said, I think it’s been canon for ever that Time Lords (also, Daleks) are pandimensional, or pandimensionally specific, or whatever they called it.

But it has been done before. In the same way that different Doctors have met before without creating any universe shattering paradoxes, even though it’s canon that that shit’s not supposed to happen.

Not to mention that Hurt’s Doctor, as far as we know, doesn’t exist outside of the Doctor’s timeline. So I got the impression that he was more of a very likely possibility that never actually came into existence, in the outside world, but who stayed very present within the Doctor’s timeline. Maybe kind of like a shadow. Maybe because the likelihood of the Doctor becoming that was so great, and so haunting for the Doctor once he manages to beat the odds, that he becomes his own entity inside the timeline even though he’s not real.

But then once the Doctor jumped inside the timeline, creating a huge paradox, he might have been set free? Either as a separate person from the Doctor, wreaking havoc in their regular universe, or as him/the timeline changing so that he always had happened, which would mean Ten and Eleven both never existed, and the universe changes to fit this new reality (because it would not create a parallel universe, as I’ve said). And Ten and Eleven have to get rid of him before they get erased out of reality, as technically they were never born, which is a huge paradox all on its own, but the good, plot-relevant kind instead of Moffat’s usual ‘this is only happening because I obviously don’t know what the fuck I’m doing’ kind. And that could be why Ten would be coming back for the 50th.

I read your thing. I don’t understand how tentoo would have vanished (and not come back a few minutes later, when Clara put the Doctor’s timeline back to rights), and specially how that would be connected in any way to ten dying. And which death are we talking about? The regeneration? Or any random death that just happened because the GI went back and made it happen? You said “Clara saved all the Doctors, including Ten. But if Ten died…” so I really don’t get your logic at all, because just right there you’re already contradicting yourself… Are we assuming he died or that he survived because Clara saved him?

Considering we’re just talking about the GI meddling and causing some change that would result in tentoo not being created, then he’d still come back the moment Clara fixed it.

The GI basically went around changing things that happened in the Doctor’s life to screw him over, get him killed over and over again (which makes for a shitty plot, as is usual with Moffat, because once the GI kills him the first time in the Doctor’s timeline then all the rest never happened in the first place, but yeah), and consequently also kill all the people he saved.

Clara went back and fixed (or at least tried to fix) all the changes the GI made. So that the current past of the Doctor (if that makes any sense) might have some differences from how it originally was, but mainly stays the same because that’s what Clara was striving for all along (don’t ask me how she would know what the correct outcome was or how she had such a high success rate, because I think Moffat never gave these issues as much as a second of consideration, so there’s no explanation to be had). She was obviously successful enough that the Doctor was still alive, after god knows how many thousands of attempts on his life by the GI, and at least the majority of the people he saved are still alive (the stars were no longer going out, for one, and Jenny was back, which implies Clara had already been successful by the time Eleven jumped in).

So even if Tentoo did disappear (because the GI made it so that he never existed), like Jenny did, he would have gotten back the moment Clara fixed things. The same goes for Rose being suddenly back in the original universe. Even assuming that this is something that would happen - and I’m not even so sure because, fuck, is there anything the Doctor wanted less than her being stuck there? -, it would also change back when Clara fixed things.

I have the slight impression I might just not be getting your logic, but from the way I understood it it simply wouldn’t make sense.

Of course Ten survived after Clara saved him (only from what the GI did). My point is at one moment he was dead, before Clara entered the timestream. I suggested that that specific moment happened earlier for Rose, since her Universe is ahead in time. She is suddenly back in the original Universe. She recovers her memories somehow (?), finds Clara and gives her the TARDIS phone number. However, this Universe is behind in time compared to hers. She has to wait not only a few minutes, but until the end of the series. Obviously, after Clara saved Ten in TNOTD, things changed back, so yes she would be again in Pete’s World, so she would not be in the 50th. But I’m assuming Clara will have to explain the whole woman in the shop thing, so maybe Rose could be in her memory if not physically in the episode. Like I said, I know it is not very plausible, doesn’t sound like Moffat, but it’s not completely absurd either.

oh ok so she wouldn’t be in the 50th. that’s what got me confused, because, though, yeah, they better explain the woman in a shop thing (though I don’t have high hopes for that, with Moffat being Moffat), and Rose would make some sense in that case, I was mostly throwing around ideas for the 50th specifically, since we know Rose will be there but not which one.

As you said, the problem would be how Rose found out about Clara. I feel like if we squint there might be a way to tie all of this together through the ever trusty timey wimey-ness this show allows us, with maybe Rose going back after the events of the 50th to give Clara the phone number to ensure she and the Doctor would meet, since she’d be the only one who can do it without risking a paradox. It wouldn’t be the first time Moffat did the “i’m going to the past because someone knows/has something that only I could have given/told them, which means I must have met them earlier” - he did it a good half-dozen times in that one episode with the pandorica alone. I happen to think this kind of behavior is inherently paradoxical, but Moffat obviously doesn’t mind, so it’s a definite possibility.

Initially I thought the woman in the shop was River, but she clearly wasn’t, so I really think it’s Rose, because who else? That doesn’t prove my theory, obviously, there could be a thousand other explanations.

“i’m going to the past because someone knows/has something that only I could have given/told them, which means I must have met them earlier” -> Gosh, I hate that! That is basically what the Doctor’s relationship with River was built on. And indeed, Moffat loves it.

Anyway, I would love if my theory was correct. That’s why I must forget about it, since I want to be prepared for the worst. :/

fuckthesecondsun:

madeupstoriesmatter:

fuckthesecondsun:

madeupstoriesmatter:

“a picture was tweeted (and then removed) by Louise Eastell who was reporting being on set as Billie Piper’s (Rose Tyler) stunt-double. The costume doesn’t seem to match what we’ve seen Rose wear in any of her previous appearances in the show…perhaps she’s an alternate Rose, traveling with Hurt’s…

After the name of the doctor I thought of something similar too.

First of all, let me begin by saying that what I thought of straight away when it comes to John Hurt is that he’s an alternative version of Nine. Like, at the end of Eight’s life he did something terrible or very wrong etc. and instead of regenerating into the Nine we know he regenerated into a different Ninth Doctor (who is played by John Hurt). I didn’t even realize that this was actually open for interpretation until I started seeing other theories on Tumblr, but I still think this one makes the most sense.

So the way I saw it, in a universe where Nine was (apparently) kind of evil, or at least broken enough that he was not going around saving people anymore, he never meets Rose. He was never there when the Autons attacked, or when all the other alien attacks in London happened in the following years. As we’ve more or less seen in Turn Left, the consequences of that are dire. This case is different, though, because the Doctor wasn’t around for longer, which means they may have been taken care of in different ways, so that the result is not exactly the same as the world Donna lived in when she decided to help Rose.

Well, anyway, so now that the Doctor’s not around, the world is going to shit to at least some extent. And there is Rose Tyler, who always had the potential to be a hero but never had to tap into it in her boring old life, until she met the Doctor and constantly found herself in life/death situations.

Now, remember Rickey from Pete’s World? How he was the leader of an underground rebel group trying to stop the Cybermen? Whereas Mickey was just a mechanic that never amounted to much and never believed he had the ability to do so in the first place? What I’m getting at here is that Rickey became the leader of a rebellion, and thus a hero, because his world needed someone to save it, and there was no one else, so he took it upon himself to do it.

John Hurt’s AU is the same way. All this shit is hitting the fan (even assuming John Hurt himself wouldn’t become a threat, too), and there is no Doctor to save the Earth. So people obviously would start trying to fight off the aliens the best they could, probably forming all kinds of groups and agencies and whatnot.

Can anyone honestly believe Rose Tyler wouldn’t be at the very heart of something like that? Much like Rickey did, she’ll probably feel it’s her duty to do the most she can to help once she realizes something’s wrong.

So what I’ve been thinking is that maybe the Rose we’re going to see in the 50th is this one I just described. A Rose Tyler who never met or travelled with the Doctor, and who became a hero in her own right fighting off invading aliens on Earth, and possibly even going beyond that later (I, too, noticed the Vortex Manipulator on the double, and I don’t think it would be a stretch to think that if she stuck around Earth actively working with alien-related stuff she could end up either finding a vortex manipulator or else hitching a ride with some non-threatening space travelers and finding the manipulator through them/at a stop or destination).

Now that I’ve seen this post I’m thinking it’s just as likely that she did meet the Doctor-who-is-not-the-Doctor anyway and ended up being his companion, and that since he’s a different man their future is different enough that it’d explain the way she looked, etc.

I honestly don’t know which theory I’d prefer.

I do think it’s going to be one of them, however, because:

1- post-tentoo Rose would be heart-breaking. More importantly, it would be hard to explain how she got back (and why she’ll be leaving again, as we know she must). Most importantly, I don’t think even Moffat is crazy enough to mess with Rose and Tentoo’s happy ending, because he must know, with how many fans the Doctor/Rose ship has, it wouldn’t end well for him.

2- dimension-hopping Rose seemed to always wear the blue leather jacket (a time traveler must have a ‘signature time travelling coat’ after all), would also be hard to explain, and I don’t think she would be relevant enough to the 50th’s plot that it would be worth it to bring Billie back

3- s2 Rose looks too much younger (and chubbier) than Billie does currently, and I think if Moffat used s2 Rose it’d only be to constantly compare Rose with Clara and show off how ‘superior’ to Rose Clara is, like Clara is an improved version of Rose and he’d use the whole episode to rub our (and Rose’s) faces in it - so, basically, fuck no. Moreover, it would do little to the plot, specially because the Ten we’re getting back seems to be the falling-apart-and-going-insane post-s4 Ten (what with Elizabeth I being around), so why would s2 Rose be back without her Doctor?

Basically all other possible Roses we can get would not be relevant enough to the plot of the 50th that they’d go to the trouble of getting Billie to play the part again. Specially with how much Moffat’s probably gonna try to fit into this episode, with all the loopholey complexities he likes having in his stories, and Ten and an alternative, villain-y Doctor being there too, I find it unlikely they’d go to the trouble of bringing back Rose Tyler just for the hell of it and because a lot of the fans would like it.

So yeah, I think she’s either John Hurt’s companion or, for lack of a better term, his companion-that-wasn’t. Because this way we get a popular character back, yes, but in a way that she could add a lot to the storyline and make it worth everyone’s while.

holy shit this was long

Don’t you think, if Hurt’s character were from a parallel world, Eleven would ignore his existence and what he’s done? Even being a Time Lord? I got the impression the he knew that man very well, from his own life, not from an alternate version. I could be wrong, but I think he’s from the same Universe.

I agree with 2 and 3, but I think 1 is not impossible, although unlikely. Actually yesterday I came up with a theory, which you can read here. It is unlikely, sounds a bit like what RTD did in series 4, but with some adjustments could be possible. Maybe.

I also think spoiling Tentoo and Rose’s happy ending would be crossing a line even for Moffat. But I’m very scared anyway, because I ship them insanely hard, and I’m not sure if Moffat cares about what fans want. But I hope you’re right.

For me, personally, having a Rose that is not really our Rose, but an alternate Rose, would be a huge disappointment. As well as just an echo, a shapeshifter or something (we have to consider that). But still that would be better than ruining Tentoo x Rose, of course.

Oh, I never said John Hurt was from a parallel world. I think it’s canon that Time Lords are pan-dimensional (or something like that), which basically means there’s only one of each of them in the multi-verse - so there’s no parallel universe version of Gallifrey or of any time lord.

While normally I’d use this reasoning as proof that there can be no alternative versions of the Doctor at all (not just versions from parallel universes/other dimensions), there have been alternative Doctors before, who are in effect the only Doctor at the time (say, the Twelfth Doctor), except that then the other, previous Doctors stop him from ever being created in the first place. Or something along those lines. I think that’s pretty much who the Valeyard is, isn’t it? And time lord victorious? I never watched that special because I couldn’t find it anywhere, so I’m not too sure on the plot, but I think he’s like the eleven-that-could-have-been if Amy had died a certain way. And then the eleven we know went and stopped him/the events that made him that way, so he never existed at all

Now, that is HUGE GAPING PLOT HOLE in the whole concept of Time Lords, because as I said, I think it’s been canon for ever that Time Lords (also, Daleks) are pandimensional, or pandimensionally specific, or whatever they called it.

But it has been done before. In the same way that different Doctors have met before without creating any universe shattering paradoxes, even though it’s canon that that shit’s not supposed to happen.

Not to mention that Hurt’s Doctor, as far as we know, doesn’t exist outside of the Doctor’s timeline. So I got the impression that he was more of a very likely possibility that never actually came into existence, in the outside world, but who stayed very present within the Doctor’s timeline. Maybe kind of like a shadow. Maybe because the likelihood of the Doctor becoming that was so great, and so haunting for the Doctor once he manages to beat the odds, that he becomes his own entity inside the timeline even though he’s not real.

But then once the Doctor jumped inside the timeline, creating a huge paradox, he might have been set free? Either as a separate person from the Doctor, wreaking havoc in their regular universe, or as him/the timeline changing so that he always had happened, which would mean Ten and Eleven both never existed, and the universe changes to fit this new reality (because it would not create a parallel universe, as I’ve said). And Ten and Eleven have to get rid of him before they get erased out of reality, as technically they were never born, which is a huge paradox all on its own, but the good, plot-relevant kind instead of Moffat’s usual ‘this is only happening because I obviously don’t know what the fuck I’m doing’ kind. And that could be why Ten would be coming back for the 50th.

I read your thing. I don’t understand how tentoo would have vanished (and not come back a few minutes later, when Clara put the Doctor’s timeline back to rights), and specially how that would be connected in any way to ten dying. And which death are we talking about? The regeneration? Or any random death that just happened because the GI went back and made it happen? You said “Clara saved all the Doctors, including Ten. But if Ten died…” so I really don’t get your logic at all, because just right there you’re already contradicting yourself… Are we assuming he died or that he survived because Clara saved him?

Considering we’re just talking about the GI meddling and causing some change that would result in tentoo not being created, then he’d still come back the moment Clara fixed it.

The GI basically went around changing things that happened in the Doctor’s life to screw him over, get him killed over and over again (which makes for a shitty plot, as is usual with Moffat, because once the GI kills him the first time in the Doctor’s timeline then all the rest never happened in the first place, but yeah), and consequently also kill all the people he saved.

Clara went back and fixed (or at least tried to fix) all the changes the GI made. So that the current past of the Doctor (if that makes any sense) might have some differences from how it originally was, but mainly stays the same because that’s what Clara was striving for all along (don’t ask me how she would know what the correct outcome was or how she had such a high success rate, because I think Moffat never gave these issues as much as a second of consideration, so there’s no explanation to be had). She was obviously successful enough that the Doctor was still alive, after god knows how many thousands of attempts on his life by the GI, and at least the majority of the people he saved are still alive (the stars were no longer going out, for one, and Jenny was back, which implies Clara had already been successful by the time Eleven jumped in).

So even if Tentoo did disappear (because the GI made it so that he never existed), like Jenny did, he would have gotten back the moment Clara fixed things. The same goes for Rose being suddenly back in the original universe. Even assuming that this is something that would happen - and I’m not even so sure because, fuck, is there anything the Doctor wanted less than her being stuck there? -, it would also change back when Clara fixed things.

I have the slight impression I might just not be getting your logic, but from the way I understood it it simply wouldn’t make sense.

Of course Ten survived after Clara saved him (only from what the GI did). My point is at one moment he was dead, before Clara entered the timestream. I suggested that that specific moment happened earlier for Rose, since her Universe is ahead in time. She is suddenly back in the original Universe. She recovers her memories somehow (?), finds Clara and gives her the TARDIS phone number. However, this Universe is behind in time compared to hers. She has to wait not only a few minutes, but until the end of the series. Obviously, after Clara saved Ten in TNOTD, things changed back, so yes she would be again in Pete’s World, so she would not be in the 50th. But I’m assuming Clara will have to explain the whole woman in the shop thing, so maybe Rose could be in her memory if not physically in the episode. Like I said, I know it is not very plausible, doesn’t sound like Moffat, but it’s not completely absurd either.